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Vibe-Rater

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Reply with quote  #1 
Any members use Tri-axial accelerometers? -- for routine work.

I have one but don't like it. Usually a single axis accel is enough to detect a fault. and then for those who remember the right hand rule, i really don't want to be twirling my hand around at every point I need to measure. And there is more data to analyse as well. Later this month I visit a paper machine where a triax is used at the tender side of the dryer cylinders. Not looking forward to it. 

Anyway, food for thought.  and they are really expensive as well.  rgds
fburgos

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Reply with quote  #2 
I do, collection time is fast! we have a "convention" B to the back of the machine, CSI 2140 triax has big letters B is channel 2 axial direction on my database.

data wise is very similar to single channel measurements.
OLi

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Reply with quote  #3 
Yes we do for volume data collection and it may be one reason for still having the gig part from doing it 20+ years since it is so fast, competitors for that site do not have it, the box we use show a predefined icon/"picture" where to put the sensor.
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MarkL

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Reply with quote  #4 
Is that the falcon Oil? Or you using the x5?
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Reply with quote  #5 
You have a pic for each measurement point?  I am thinking at the back of a paper machine. the angle of the dangle is never the same so how can you repeat the exact orientation of the sensor?  I tried it and gave up unless you have permanent mounts. Then you waste time clicking in. Otherwise you are still trwirling you rright hand around.....
 1 axis is enough. Vibration radiates in all directions. Axial for double row sphericals is best Vertical next and horizontal is near useless.  So I go for axial on dryer cylinders. Never failed before. On Yankees I do go 3 directions. Alsmost as fast as triax and a lot cheaper.  You and I know paper and tissue machines very well so please treat my comments as well considered. you are a legend on this board. rgds 
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Reply with quote  #6 
So re reading Oli you do have a pic for each point. I am totally impressed. I will be on a refinery on Monday and paper mill the following Monday.  i do love my work and still want to do this until I retire.  On Tuesday I will meet a newcomer to the industry and I am hell bent on teaching her as much as possible!  The one thing that erks me is that big companies want to employ experienced but in the real world where does the fresh blood come from?  The wise Jewish man said, give me a boy until he is 7 and I will show you the man. I am not Jewish but do agree with the saying.

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Reply with quote  #7 
Yes, still Falcon. I can't change that often it is the 3rd system on those routes 4-5th collector type, it started pre 2120, in 20-25+ years, CSI, VB3000, Falcon mainly and my sons that now do the hard work refuse anything not wireless.
It is like a pictogram, "principle picture" there are only like 12 or 16 variations.... so during setup you select the appropriate. I have made a innovation over the OEM version I have a "libell", waterpass, circular air bubble glued to the sensor so I can verify up, actually in 2 directons but I rarely can modify the other it get what it get but that is only because I am fuzzy a ring with a marker on machine would do the same and OEM magnet is actually stronger than anything I can get myself.
We have made it so that 90+% are the same position, "picture", the "good", direct direction in 3-ax is the horizontal and the others are as they are with air bubble topside. So I maybe only get "good" data in 1 direction if you are picky as I sometimes are but as you say, it is enough but I get the 3-axis data in the same spent time. In volume data collection the major thing to get some trends is to make it consistent as far as possible, perfect adaption to ISO standard is actually less important in this case as I belive, the trend is your friend.....
So we try to keep it simple and have done it like that for a few years now. We killed 2 transducers as the on/off button is not wet end safe originally, minimum you need to add some silicon. That is the way we do it and it works for us, reduced collection time 40-50% from 2 days to less than 1 day on 2 small tissue machines, compared to the VB3000 that is or the "blue whale" that was pre Falcon that was even slower than VB3000 operationally. We do the same collection rate with as we did with 3 people and 3x VB3000 that we did once.
We do it with 2 people for safety and social but we only have 1 Falcon so the other get some hydraulics (that are so bad what is it with those) and aux fans during the same period using the older "blue whale" we have for backup.
So we extended to collect IR temp on the cardan shaft universal joints thru the inspection hatches so now we can say, no it is not those yet when the shafts go nuts.

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MarkL

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Reply with quote  #8 
Have to say If I ever went out on my own, or if the Bosses asked me what data collector I want if I had free choice, the falcon would be it. I also like the way theyre analysis software is laid out. Seen a demo of it a few years back and makes machine setup very easy. On My current system database building is the biggest pain.
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Reply with quote  #9 
It is that in that system also IRL, believe me, it is not a quick add and go consultant solution in my view, web interface do not give the options I need, I have to go to the old quirky system to do it as I like, but that's me. I like the Commtest now obsolete software since I knew the programmer and could influence it a little for a quick consultant effort, knock test, waterfall or a quick data collection but again, that's me, it is slow collecting data but it does not matter that much if you work by the hour.
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Vibe-Rater

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkL
Have to say If I ever went out on my own, or if the Bosses asked me what data collector I want if I had free choice, the falcon would be it. I also like the way theyre analysis software is laid out. Seen a demo of it a few years back and makes machine setup very easy. On My current system database building is the biggest pain.


Hi MarkL, database creation only has to happen once so other features and efficiency of data collection and analysis becomes way more important because you need them every survey thereafter. rgds  
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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLi
It is that in that system also IRL, believe me, it is not a quick add and go consultant solution in my view, web interface do not give the options I need, I have to go to the old quirky system to do it as I like, but that's me. I like the Commtest now obsolete software since I knew the programmer and could influence it a little for a quick consultant effort, knock test, waterfall or a quick data collection but again, that's me, it is slow collecting data but it does not matter that much if you work by the hour.


Hi Oli, data collection speed is really important to me when collecting the drive side of a paper machine with 56 dryer cylinders, 100 or so felt rolls and my guess is about 50 gear / idler points. I wouldn't want anything else than a 2140 - I don't want to cook myself.  Anecdote from years ago (DLI again) they claimed to be fastest even noting how fast the datta was collected. but then 5 minutes whilst it wrote that data to an internal HDD before you could move to next point - straight into the rubbish bin / trash can.  and I am not kidding about the extremely slow speed. rgds.
OLi

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Reply with quote  #12 
Well the only slow about the Falcon is the download to the PC after the route, that is a pain Oracle database so there are always something and there are always lunch break. I also done the dryers with a 2120 and a long cable and quick step, 3L water.........
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RustyCas

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Reply with quote  #13 
I use the CSI triax on large air compressor motors and large fan motors and some overhung fan bearings.  I think you're overthinking the accelerometer directions....

I added B and C labels to my sensor, and usually mount it with C at top-dead-center. A is along the sensor axis, as with any other accel. C is vertical (up-down).  B is axial (left-right).  You assign the channels based on where you are mounting the accelerometer.  For instance, if I'm taking data at MOA (motor outbrd axial), the MOA = Channel 1 (A), MOH = Channel 2 (B), MOV = Channel 3 (C).  I just order the route points so that MOA comes up first.  This tells me to mount the sensor at MOA, with the 'C' label at TDC.  Push the button. Done.  Meter skips to the next "group".  Mount the sensor according to the 1st point in that group.  Keep moving. 

 If measuring at MOH, then different Channel assignments, and different if mounted at MOV.  It's really pretty simple.  The channel assignments are the key.  The location of C can vary, but the C direction is always at right angles to the magnet rails, which are fixed.  When setting up the channels, I used a square hunk of metal and just mounted it the way it would be on the machine.  I can always 'see' the machine in my minds eye - I wouldn't try to use a triax without setting it up in the database first.  For route work, that'd be useless.

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MarkL

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLi
Well the only slow about the Falcon is the download to the PC after the route, that is a pain Oracle database so there are always something and there are always lunch break. I also done the dryers with a 2120 and a long cable and quickstep, 3L water.........


Oracle? Holy crap, that's a bit of an oversight, I recall when I first started at this game our aptitude was o an oracle database and it was a pain uploading and downloading routes, then it went to SQL and was like a sport car in speed, now we are on cloud server through thin client and even on my phone as a hotspot with 3 bars of 3g signal its still even quicker still.

Vibrater-
Yes, the long term goal is good consistent data collection and analysis, but I work on my own and I have to get databases set up reasonably quickly as the customer doesn't give us much time window to build a data base. 
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